The Drunken Lizard Pub

I'm about 19 hours into book 2, about to head down to amireth. But before I go there, I wanna whine about some things, heh.

1. Where'd the loot randomness go?
This confuses me deeply. Certain item categories seem to have almost no randomness to them whatsoever. The biggest offenders: light armor cloaks, gloves, and headgear. I'm level 18 now, and I JUST NOW finally found my first cloak that had an enchantment other than hide in shadows (after 2 hours of merchant reloading). I've still only ever seen ONE piece of light armor hand wear that had more than 1 armor, and that was 2 armor bracers from keebo. Light armor helmets that are NOT mage hats are a teensy bit more common than light gloves with greater than 1 armor... but it's a VERY fine margin.

It gets VERY old VERY fast when you know that every time you visit an arms merchant there will be 0-3 cloak of the shadows, 0-5 assassin's/burglar's/tinker's/accurate gloves, and 4-10 mage hats.

2. Just like in book I, almost all the pre-enchanted gear from merchants is level 1 equivalent gear. Can we PLEASE have a system that allows the application of, for example, the Burglar's Gloves template to be added to higher quality gloves? Gear is supposed to get better as you level up in an RPG.

3. I really really miss being able to switch weapons with the enter key.

4. The random forage loot should occasionally include food/water.

5. (not a real big deal, just annoying) The stat roller sure seems to have a MUCH heavier bias towards the low range this time around. Takes way longer to get decent 100+ rolls.

6. some of the axiom/class starting skills are very poor choices. So bad that it actually became worthwhile to me to employ the character editor to fix them. (nefarious ranger gets piercing weapons? WTF yo? R-A-N-G-E-R. bows. end of story.) Having a list of class appropriate skills and being able to choose one as your freebie would be better. (ie: ranger chooses from bows, piercing, forage, survival)

7. WTB more storage at the player's home please.

EDIT: 8. Now that I've seen the ending animation, one final gripe: It would have been nice if the decision you make right at the end made any kind of difference.

Yuritau wrote:3. I really really miss being able to switch weapons with the enter key.

I can't answer all of these, or even explain them. The only one I can give my part to is this. I know of a way, to become the ultimate warrior with that one key, and 3 items.
Best sword you can possible get.
Any bow. (I always did an expensive one, because I had an excess of money - but that doesn't really matter)
200+ Arrows.

Wield the bow as often as possible. Have the sword in the second slot. Fire an arrow at the enemy. As the arrow is flying, hit "enter" and you have the sword out instead of the bow. Now when the arrow hits the enemy, no matter how crappy that arrow was, it will do the damage of the sword. I've beaten the game without this tactic, but it took around twice the amount of time. I'm not sure if it's the only reason they took this out, but I'm fairly confident that it was a part of it. It was cheap, but it was a good way to do 50+ damage from 8 tiles away.

Yuritau wrote: 1. Where'd the loot randomness go?
This confuses me deeply. Certain item categories seem to have almost no randomness to them whatsoever. The biggest offenders: light armor cloaks, gloves, and headgear. I'm level 18 now, and I JUST NOW finally found my first cloak that had an enchantment other than hide in shadows (after 2 hours of merchant reloading). I've still only ever seen ONE piece of light armor hand wear that had more than 1 armor, and that was 2 armor bracers from keebo. Light armor helmets that are NOT mage hats are a teensy bit more common than light gloves with greater than 1 armor... but it's a VERY fine margin.

It gets VERY old VERY fast when you know that every time you visit an arms merchant there will be 0-3 cloak of the shadows, 0-5 assassin's/burglar's/tinker's/accurate gloves, and 4-10 mage hats.

At the very least, it would be nice to avoid generating exact duplicates in a merchant's inventory.

5. (not a real big deal, just annoying) The stat roller sure seems to have a MUCH heavier bias towards the low range this time around. Takes way longer to get decent 100+ rolls.

I suspect this is probably your imagination, the same way that a lot of people think they hit less often than they should.

6. some of the axiom/class starting skills are very poor choices. So bad that it actually became worthwhile to me to employ the character editor to fix them. (nefarious ranger gets piercing weapons? WTF yo? R-A-N-G-E-R. bows. end of story.) Having a list of class appropriate skills and being able to choose one as your freebie would be better. (ie: ranger chooses from bows, piercing, forage, survival)

You could see this as a balance thing - nefarious is probably the "best" combat axiom, and (in my opinion, which many people disagree with) ranger is the best combat class. I did request a different build system in Book III, though, where you can simply choose your starting skill. I don't know how likely that is to make the cut.

7. WTB more storage at the player's home please.

I don't really get why people store stuff at the character's house in Book II. It's not near a fast travel point, and if you're going to use Portal to travel to a home base there are better places to pick.

EDIT: 8. Now that I've seen the ending animation, one final gripe: It would have been nice if the decision you make right at the end made any kind of difference.

I hope that it will in Book III, but I agree that it would have been nice to at least suggest that in the Book II ending.

Vroqren wrote: Wield the bow as often as possible. Have the sword in the second slot. Fire an arrow at the enemy. As the arrow is flying, hit "enter" and you have the sword out instead of the bow. Now when the arrow hits the enemy, no matter how crappy that arrow was, it will do the damage of the sword. I've beaten the game without this tactic, but it took around twice the amount of time. I'm not sure if it's the only reason they took this out, but I'm fairly confident that it was a part of it. It was cheap, but it was a good way to do 50+ damage from 8 tiles away.

That's an interesting exploit, but not a particularly useful one. You can do just as much damage with a bow as with a sword - more, even, since you can get enhancements on both the bow and the arrow.

1. It's still random. I didn't get the same results you do O_o

2. Indeed. It frustrates me too.

3. I'd like that too

4. I found it weird that you couldn't forage for food and water sometimes.

6. First ranger known is Aragorn from Lord of the Rings. Remember his bow ? Neither do I (but I remember his 2-handed sword). Rangers are not people with ranged attacks, but people who live in the wilds, and roam through vast ranges. It's actually really sad that they got only the bow/pet mechanic in most games.

Yuritau wrote:4. The random forage loot should occasionally include food/water.

You know that more food and water is already part of the package? The higher your foraging skill is, the slower your food- and water bars go down, to reflect the fact you're having more ease finding this in nature.

SpottedShroom wrote:

Vroqren wrote: Wield the bow as often as possible. Have the sword in the second slot. Fire an arrow at the enemy. As the arrow is flying, hit "enter" and you have the sword out instead of the bow. Now when the arrow hits the enemy, no matter how crappy that arrow was, it will do the damage of the sword. I've beaten the game without this tactic, but it took around twice the amount of time. I'm not sure if it's the only reason they took this out, but I'm fairly confident that it was a part of it. It was cheap, but it was a good way to do 50+ damage from 8 tiles away.

That's an interesting exploit, but not a particularly useful one. You can do just as much damage with a bow as with a sword - more, even, since you can get enhancements on both the bow and the arrow.

But enchanted arrows are twice the price of normal arrows. I suppose you do have a point however, because with yours you don't have to get [weapon skills] and [weapon bows]. I usually just ignore the red words on the screen - I don't care how loud I am - I destroyed everything living in the entire game!

Yuritau wrote:I'm about 19 hours into book 2, about to head down to amireth. But before I go there, I wanna whine about some things, heh.

1. Where'd the loot randomness go?
This confuses me deeply. Certain item categories seem to have almost no randomness to them whatsoever. The biggest offenders: light armor cloaks, gloves, and headgear. I'm level 18 now, and I JUST NOW finally found my first cloak that had an enchantment other than hide in shadows (after 2 hours of merchant reloading)....

As someone else suggested, this may just be your perception, from the randomness - if you play the game again, you may get luckier than your current playthrough.

That said, I've heard a number of good suggestions on this front - e.g. giving more than just the lowest class items bonuses, and returning more to the Book I system than the Book II system on item generation esp. with merchants (I'm a strong proponent of this one!).

Yuritau wrote:2. Just like in book I, almost all the pre-enchanted gear from merchants is level 1 equivalent gear. Can we PLEASE have a system that allows the application of, for example, the Burglar's Gloves template to be added to higher quality gloves? Gear is supposed to get better as you level up in an RPG.

Ah! - You were the one that suggested this one! Good call!!

I'll add this to the Book III 'Wishlist'...

Yuritau wrote:3. I really really miss being able to switch weapons with the enter key.

You're not alone - this request is already in the Book III 'Wishlist' (though I may upgrade it to "popular" now!).

Yuritau wrote:4. The random forage loot should occasionally include food/water.

I absolutely agree. In fact, Forage is over-powered right now IMHO, and I've suggested this change as a way to 'nerf' it some. So this one's already in the Book III 'Wishlist' too.

But this is one place where KillingMoon and I disagree! I'd personally like to remove Forage's affect on the Food & Thirst Status Bars, and just change it to finding food & water items, and the occasional Alchemical reagent...

Yuritau wrote:5. (not a real big deal, just annoying) The stat roller sure seems to have a MUCH heavier bias towards the low range this time around. Takes way longer to get decent 100+ rolls.

See #1 above - this is just your perception of it, and it is consequence of true randomness. If you pay again, I bet you won't see this.

Yuritau wrote:6. some of the axiom/class starting skills are very poor choices. So bad that it actually became worthwhile to me to employ the character editor to fix them. (nefarious ranger gets piercing weapons? WTF yo? R-A-N-G-E-R. bows. end of story.) Having a list of class appropriate skills and being able to choose one as your freebie would be better. (ie: ranger chooses from bows, piercing, forage, survival)

I agree with you - in fact, I already devoted an entire thread to this topic.

That said, I feel the opposite about Nefarious - I think Nefarious should always be paired with a 'melee' combat skill like Piercing (even with Mages!). Now you can quibble what combat skill should go with each Class with Nefarious axiom (and I agree that, with Ranger, it should maybe be, say, Cleaving, instead of Piercing as the Nefarious combat skill).

But, yeah - I would like to see the starting Skill for each Class/Title revised some for Book II

Yuritau wrote:7. WTB more storage at the player's home please.

You actually have a fair amount in Book II (if you include the barrel outside your house...)

But I actually think this will be a moot point in Book III, as I'm not expecting us to get a 'home base' (with storage capacity) in the Third Book...

I still think the way to solve this issue is to give your character the ability to make Loot Sacks "on demand".

Yuritau wrote:EDIT: 8. Now that I've seen the ending animation, one final gripe: It would have been nice if the decision you make right at the end made any kind of difference.

BW has definitely indicated that, while this couldn't really be done in Book II, this definitely will be the case in Book III.

IJBall wrote:But this is one place where KillingMoon and I disagree! I'd personally like to remove Forage's affect on the Food & Thirst Status Bars, and just change it to finding food & water items, and the occasional Alchemical reagent...

I'm not sure I've ever posted my opinion on Foraging, but in my above post I was certainly only mentioning how it worked at the moment, without any personal view attached.
What I'm not a fan of, though - or perhaps that's what you meant - is having skills that only work when you're camping. It's not realistic to do things like repair your gear or find potent mushrooms while you're sleeping. Also a good player will try to avoid having to rest. It's a bit strange to have skills becoming useless because you're playing well, like already is the case with Repair.
If you were finding stuff because of a combination of Foraging and Spot Hidden or whatever skill, then this would be a completely different matter for me.

KillingMoon wrote: What I'm not a fan of, though - or perhaps that's what you meant - is having skills that only work when you're camping. It's not realistic to do things like repair your gear or find potent mushrooms while you're sleeping. Also a good player will try to avoid having to rest. It's a bit strange to have skills becoming useless because you're playing well, like already is the case with Repair.
If you were finding stuff because of a combination of Foraging and Spot Hidden or whatever skill, then this would be a completely different matter for me.

Good point. It's rare for me to rest in Book II for any reason but to use Forage or Repair.

Camping doesn't necessarily mean you're asleep, though. I think it's reasonable to combine using your skills that require large amounts of uninterrupted time with the camping mechanic. That said, it would probably be more fun for Foraging to manifest as, say, bags with reagents randomly appearing on the map as you walk past them - "hey, look - a mushroom!" And Repair might make sense to reimplement similar to how Foraging works now - simply reducing the rate at which your equipment deteriorates.

SpottedShroom wrote:

KillingMoon wrote: What I'm not a fan of, though - or perhaps that's what you meant - is having skills that only work when you're camping. It's not realistic to do things like repair your gear or find potent mushrooms while you're sleeping. Also a good player will try to avoid having to rest. It's a bit strange to have skills becoming useless because you're playing well, like already is the case with Repair.
If you were finding stuff because of a combination of Foraging and Spot Hidden or whatever skill, then this would be a completely different matter for me.

Good point. It's rare for me to rest in Book II for any reason but to use Forage or Repair.

Yet another reason why I really would like to see "Fatigue" added to Book III as a 'game option', operating much the same way "Hunger" and "Thirst" do in Book II. (I've been pushing for "Fatigue" as a game option since Book I!... )

SpottedShroom wrote:Camping doesn't necessarily mean you're asleep, though. I think it's reasonable to combine using your skills that require large amounts of uninterrupted time with the camping mechanic.

Agreed.

SpottedShroom wrote:That said, it would probably be more fun for Foraging to manifest as, say, bags with reagents randomly appearing on the map as you walk past them - "hey, look - a mushroom!"

Yeah, I thought about that after KM suggested it, and agree that it would be really cool.

However, I think practically, it would be probably significantly harder to 'code' for implementing Forage that way over the rather much simpler way it's currently coded as part of 'camping'.

So, while KM's way would be cool, I figure that it's enough "work" to code that it probably won't happen for Book III...

SpottedShroom wrote:And Repair might make sense to reimplement similar to how Foraging works now - simply reducing the rate at which your equipment deteriorates.

I think Repair needs to be 'nerfed' a fair bit (all you needed in Book II was about one Level in Repair, and you were all set! - that was all you needed) for Book III.

I could see 'nerfing' Repair kind of the way you suggest - the first, say, 5 Levels in Repair would only slow down how quickly weapons/armor deteriorated; then, above Level 5, Repair would actually start improving the condition of weapons/armor.

That would be kind of a cool way to "fix" Repair for Book III, actually...

Yuritau wrote: (nefarious ranger gets piercing weapons? WTF yo? R-A-N-G-E-R. bows. end of story.)

End of story? Er... perhaps you never played AD&D with a Ranger that was a master of Two-Weapon fighting? Didn't your mother ever teach you that it isn't nice to stereotype? Rangers have never really been a "bow only" class, despite the usual correlation. They're more associated with nature, tracking, etc.

Also, I think a lot of people miss the fact that Foraging slows down your hunger and thirst bars... or maybe it's because it isn't as rewarding as having those resources suddenly appear in your backpack so you can use them for the same purpose. It's assumed that you are finding food/water as you travel, living off the land.

IJBall wrote:Yet another reason why I really would like to see "Fatigue" added to Book III as a 'game option', operating much the same way "Hunger" and "Thirst" do in Book II. (I've been pushing for "Fatigue" as a game option since Book I!... )

While I'm all for making things deep and complex, I don't think Eschalon needs another bar to watch... However, I wouldn't be averse to suggesting some form of exhaustion mechanic... perhaps even cumulatively linked to hunger, thirst, and lack of sleep.

CrazyBernie wrote:Also, I think a lot of people miss the fact that Foraging slows down your hunger and thirst bars... or maybe it's because it isn't as rewarding as having those resources suddenly appear in your backpack so you can use them for the same purpose. It's assumed that you are finding food/water as you travel, living off the land.

Like I said (and as you imply), I'm in the camp that would like to see Forage changed so it has no effect on the Hunger/Thirst bars, and just gets you Food (and Water) items (in addition to the occasional Alchemical reagent...).

Edit: You know what should slow down the "speed" of the Hunger/Thirst bars going down?! - points in END(urance)!

CrazyBernie wrote:

IJBall wrote:Yet another reason why I really would like to see "Fatigue" added to Book III as a 'game option', operating much the same way "Hunger" and "Thirst" do in Book II. (I've been pushing for "Fatigue" as a game option since Book I!... )

While I'm all for making things deep and complex, I don't think Eschalon needs another bar to watch...

The key words are game option.

I'd like to see it done the same way Hunger & Thirst are - if you choose that game option = FATIGUE STATUS BAR!! but if you don't, then you can keep your character awake as long as you want (as you can now) and you don't have to worry about "added game complexity".

CrazyBernie wrote:However, I wouldn't be averse to suggesting some form of exhaustion mechanic... perhaps even cumulatively linked to hunger, thirst, and lack of sleep.

I'd be OK with that as an alternative. But I suspect your way would actually be more labor for BW.

Most of the "work" in having a "Fatigue Status Bar" has kind of already been done by BW - use most of the coding done for the Hunger/Thirst Bars, and just adjust it a little to work for Fatigue.

I realize lots of people don't want to play with "Fatigue" as an option.

But for those of us who want to add more "realism" our games, it would be a really cool game option, and I think most of the work has already been done so setting it up probably shouldn't involve moving too many mountains for BW.

But I've been dying to play a "Fatigue"-compliant/consequential game of Eschalon since Book One!!

IJBall wrote: But I've been dying to play a "Fatigue"-compliant/consequential game of Eschalon since Book One!! :mrgreen:

Well, let's see. There are 1440 turns in an Eschalon day, which is the same number of minutes in an actual day. So just enforce the following rules:

1. You can only play one turn per minute.
2. You can only stop playing to sleep (or "repair your equipment").
3. After returning to the game from sleeping, camp for as many hours as you slept. Since this will take a little while, you can relax rule #1 slightly to compensate.
4. You can only save and restore if you have a time machine.

That'll show those Roguelike fans who the real hardcore gamers are. Enjoy!

CrazyBernie wrote:

Yuritau wrote: (nefarious ranger gets piercing weapons? WTF yo? R-A-N-G-E-R. bows. end of story.)

End of story? Er... perhaps you never played AD&D with a Ranger that was a master of Two-Weapon fighting? Didn't your mother ever teach you that it isn't nice to stereotype? Rangers have never really been a "bow only" class, despite the usual correlation. They're more associated with nature, tracking, etc.

In the context provided by the in game description, there is no reason for a ranger to not start with the bow skill.

In various forms of D&D (AD&D, 3.0/3.5, Pathfinder, DDO) I've played far more melee rangers than bow rangers. That's irrelevant though. So is Aragorn. What is relevant is the way rangers are described in character creation in Eschalon Books I & II.