The problems with stealth

[Rowanas]

I know lots of people have been having problems re-stealthing, but I think I've found a solution. It works for me and I thought it was a standard feature of the game until everyone started pointing out that they were having trouble, so here's what I do to overcome being seen.

When you get out of sight of all enemies, and out of a certain radius around them (needs more research), you won't cloak unless your stealthy status changes to something more stealthy, usually you'll be next to a single wall when you get seen, so running and hiding in a corner will cloak you.

I'm not sure what happens if you get seen while being in a corner piece, you may be able to run away to a different corner piece.

[deathknight1728]

Your probably right on this. Though i have different views on stealth.

Hide in shadows is almost useless. The only time it could be good is when you have it at level 10. And even that isnt enough. I know some may rate a skill like hide well, but i cant justify using a skill i cant use until the end of the game.

Move silently is even more useless. I bumped that up quite a bit to no effect. My silent icon is up while enemies are running towards me at 1 screen away. It has too be a bug because otherwise it would be somewhat useful.

It almost makes rangers/mages/clerics the favored and better classes. The reasoning behind that is that rogues and fighters have to get in your face when they are hidden (which is a lot harder to do). Rangers/mages/clerics dont and thus take advantage of a skill that should be meant for melee classes. I'm not saying that it should be meant to be for a ranger to not use hide, but its more meant for melee imho.

[Rowanas]

I agree with pretty much everything you've said there.

For HiS to be any good, you've got to keep pumping it for ages, even with the trainer (who you can't reach until you've already got good HiS) and the book. It's just not worthwhile. I played a rogue on my last run through, he had 14, plus the cloak of shadows and two rings of shadows to take him up to twenty. That still wasn't enough for some creatures (not including those that can see in the dark anyway).

[Kreador Freeaxe]

Hide in Shadows appears to have been excessively nerfed in Book II, since in Book I it could make a character nearly invincible at relatively low HiS levels. While at the same time, some new skills were added, and some skills were given a revamp that makes them much more interesting in Book II.

So far in Book II, I've never bothered with HiS, but I may at some point (I'm trying out all sorts of weird stuff). I disagree that it's particularly important for fighters, though. It's much better for Rangers who can then snipe from their hiding spot. My latest build testing the Shield skill shows that it can, in fact, be extremely powerful for your classic sword-and-board fighter (though my particular shield user primarily focused on piercing weapons). What Book II rewards most is focus. There are so many cool skills, it's hard not to want them all, but you really get the most benefit by staying focused on one or two skills and learning others from books and trainers when you can.

[Rowanas]

Actually, my jack of all trades rogue did better than my Barbarian hack'n'slash guy. Despite having twice as many hitpoints and ToHit points than the rogue, he's still being destroyed by things.

[deathknight1728]

Kreador said-So far in Book II, I've never bothered with HiS, but I may at some point (I'm trying out all sorts of weird stuff). I disagree that it's particularly important for fighters, though. It's much better for Rangers who can then snipe from their hiding spot. My latest build testing the Shield skill shows that it can, in fact, be extremely powerful for your classic sword-and-board fighter (though my particular shield user primarily focused on piercing weapons). What Book II rewards most is focus. There are so many cool skills, it's hard not to want them all, but you really get the most benefit by staying focused on one or two skills and learning others from books and trainers when you can.

It does help the rangers the most. But think about this-your a rogue who specializes in daggers by a little, and also has many points into hide and silent. You just barely won a fight. You are wounded and have only 1 health pot left to use in EXTREME situations. You need to get out of where you are without alerting more people of your presence. What is going to be the thing you rely more on: Hide and Silent or your dagger.

[Kreador Freeaxe]

It does help the rangers the most. But think about this-your a rogue who specializes in daggers by a little, and also has many points into hide and silent. You just barely won a fight. You are wounded and have only 1 health pot left to use in EXTREME situations. You need to get out of where you are without alerting more people of your presence. What is going to be the thing you rely more on: Hide and Silent or your dagger.

Oh, I agree that it's most suited to a rogue/assassin play style in theory, and the way it worked in Book I, it was pretty easy to get a rogue who was practically invisible anytime but in the open in broad daylight. I think BW tried to ramp down the power of stealth in Book II, but went a bit too far. It's a really tough element to balance, though, so I can understand his predicament. Perhaps my next character will be a rogue/assassin build and I'll see if pumping HiS the way I pumped Shields this last time will make a big difference.

Of course, to play a proper Rogue, there are SO MANY skills that should be paid attention to: piercing weapons, hide in shadows, move silently, dodge, pick locks, skulduggery, probably light armor (though you can do with just the one point--though I wish the book were easier to find; I never seem to get it until past midway in the game). It's a very difficult character build to develop properly as opposed to the relative simplicity of a melee fighter or a mage.

[IJBall]

It does help the rangers the most. But think about this-your a rogue who specializes in daggers by a little, and also has many points into hide and silent. You just barely won a fight. You are wounded and have only 1 health pot left to use in EXTREME situations. You need to get out of where you are without alerting more people of your presence. What is going to be the thing you rely more on: Hide and Silent or your dagger.

Oh, I agree that it's most suited to a rogue/assassin play style in theory, and the way it worked in Book I, it was pretty easy to get a rogue who was practically invisible anytime but in the open in broad daylight. I think BW tried to ramp down the power of stealth in Book II, but went a bit too far. It's a really tough element to balance, though, so I can understand his predicament...

In general, I think HiS, Alchemy, and esp. Lore (and possibly also Spot Hidden, though I've had pretty much no chance to test that one...) have been "over-corrected" (i.e. made too difficult) in Book II when compared to Book I.

(Though, of those, I actually don't think HiS is too 'out of whack' in Book II, though I haven't tried using it with a Piercing Weapons-yielding Rogue yet, so I haven't fully tested it yet...)

[Kreador Freeaxe]

In general, I think HiS, Alchemy, and esp. Lore (and possibly also Spot Hidden, though I've had pretty much no chance to test that one...) have been "over-corrected" (i.e. made too difficult) in Book II when compared to Book I.

(Though, of those, I actually don't think HiS is too 'out of whack' in Book II, though I haven't tried using it with a Piercing Weapons-yielding Rogue yet, so I haven't fully tested it yet...)

I don't think Spot Hidden changed at all from Book I to Book II. It seems about the same in both, to me, and I've never had an issue with it.

The skills I think need some adjustment are Dodge (which should have a component of Speed added to the calculations, I think--which would allow for "natural dodging" just like you can be naturally silent or naturally spot items or naturally disable a trap) and Lore (which should add a component for the relevant skill in recognizing items, I think).

I think I mentioned elsewhere that I wouldn't mind seeing some added powers in Alchemy, as well, but I'm not an evangelist for that skill the way I am for some others. It would be cool if there were an alchemical alternative to Lore and Lock Melt, but I won't scream if it doesn't happen.

[IJBall]

I don't think Spot Hidden changed at all from Book I to Book II. It seems about the same in both, to me, and I've never had an issue with it.

I'm sure you're right - I just threw that one in there in case it had been changed between Book I and Book II. If it hasn't... well, it was fine in Book I, so it should be fine in Book II.

...and Lore (which should add a component for the relevant skill in recognizing items, I think).

While I agree with you, even beyond that I think Lore should be reworked some more - even for non-weapon using characters, you shouldn't need more than INT=20 and Lore=3 to ID prosaic weapons like Bronze Swords, Iron Daggers, or (Base Damage=3) staffs IMO!

[Rowanas]

Well, lots of metals and woods look pretty similar, so I'd make them harder to ID, but the whole issue with not being able to use before you ID annoys me.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, put it back in your inventory until you can be absolutely certain it's a duck, even if you, for some reason, desperately need to make use of a duck-like thing (not necessarily a specific breed of duck with +3 ToHit).

[Farwalker]

Stealth can be quite fun, but the skill point investment is admittedly extreme compared to many other things you can try in the game. At least it is if you want to be hidden/stealthy in broad daylight, in the open, wearing light armor or heavier on torso/legs/feet. And while whacking people over the head in close combat.

As mentioned, in moderation it can work well with a ranger type. It works great for a challenge game if you go pacifist too.

With stealth maxed enemies divide into two types: either they can't even try to fight back (once in a blue moon they might spot hidden and get an attack in, but not often), or they can see hidden (and often invisible too) and so stealth doesn't come into play at all.

As a mage you can get a similar benefit from invisibility without doing much you wouldn't have done anyway in terms of skill point investment.

Main differences:

1) With stealth they can't retaliate even if you attack with a weapon. With invisibility if you attack with a weapon they will defend themselves (but with a 90% penalty to hit they might not hit that often).

2) Invisibility consumes your mana or potions/carrying capacity. Stealth doesn't.

3) Stealth still has a few annoying bugs (although it's way better than it was). Invisibility is pretty straight-forward.

4) In the early to mid-game invisibility is useful even against enemies that can detect you, because the 90% to hit penalty is still applied to them. Very useful for devilmanders for example. In the late game it could be less of an issue depending on how you developed your character. (If you have high armor they might not hit you much anyway.)